Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is Sex Lies and Spray Tans with me Cheryl
Burke and iHeartRadio podcast. Hey, guys, welcome to Sex Lies
and Spray Tans. I am so happy to be welcoming
another fellow pro dancer that a lot of you had
requested to have me interview on the podcast today. This
is a person I respect immensely and whose career started
at such a young age because dance was a huge

(00:22):
part of her life and her family's life. You know
her also from So You Think You Can Dance and
she was actually the first dancer from that show that
was cass and joined the cast of Dancing with the
Stars all the way back in season seven and danced
with Lance Pass who was her very first celebrity partner.
She is not one to shy away from speaking her
mind and for standing up for herself. We haven't seen

(00:44):
or talked to each other, you guys, in like at
least over a decade, so this catchup has been a
long time coming. Please welcome my friend Lacey Schwimmer.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
Hi, Lacey, girlfriend.

Speaker 1 (00:57):
When was the last time we talked? Like? Actually, I
mean it's not in person, but we're viet I mean
the last time we saw each other like face to
face ish was over a decade ago, right before last
TEPS came out.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
No, that can't be yes, I can't be right.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
It totally is. Are you sure Yes, I stopped you
for the past like forty eight hours. I think I
know more about you than you know about yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
I am very shocked. Uh, that's sad, that's very that's
way too long.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
I mean, look, we've text like random things, yes, but
like I mean, but we haven't had like a sit
down interview right never, but like or like a sit
down conversation, like it's been so long, Lacey, it literally has.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
I was a child when I met you, and like
I was even like just going back in time even
further pre dancing with the stars when I first met you.
I don't even think you know this story. I don't
think i've ever shared this story with you.

Speaker 1 (01:50):
I was share with you.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
I was obsessed with you, Cheryl, because one time at
a random ballroom competition in Utah, it was like nationals
or whatever, and it was like such a big deal
and we all had to wear yes, and we had
to wear those awful costumes that we have to like
get measured that you know, it's like an inch or
like whatever.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
Okay, you know, tell my listeners what that is. It's fascinating.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Okay, So, like there are ballroom competitions all over the world,
right and generally at a certain age, you can wear
whatever the heck your heart desires, whatever age like whatever age,
like bras panties, but they're covered by like a feather
on your butt, like that's it. But in Utah they're
not allowed to do so. So there's costume regulations where

(02:34):
they literally pull out a tape measure and measure every
inch of your costume to make sure that you are wholesome.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
Wait, the worst was this first of all, in my
body type, it doesn't look good with like big thick straps,
like the the wider, the wider my arm looks. So
I was like, yeah, we're just gonna wear gloves. We're
gonna make it into like a sleeve into gloves. And
it's hot, mind you. People are like passing out because
your the altitude is beyond ridiculous and there's like there's
people there literally throwing up in buckets and here are

(03:04):
my partner and I were like literally training a month
prior to this because it's so hard to breathe. And
then there was the skirt. It was like middyh or longer,
and you're like, what the hell is.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
This, especially like when it comes to jive, when you're
literally lifting your heels.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
To your lunching. In general, it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (03:24):
It's stupid. I don't understand because you look at all
these dancers in Utah. Some of them are brothers and sisters,
and they're bumping and grinding on each other. But they
have to be measured for a skirt like length like
I it makes no sense to me.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
No, but the back. How about the back? You can't
have a low V. It has to go up from
like it's got to be two inches from this from
the neck or some shit like that. That's crazy.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
It's literally whatever anyway, aren't you lds. I was raised
half Jewish, half Mormon.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yes, that's right. I just did my twenty three and
me I'm fifty three percent Oshkenazi. I had no idea. Yeah,
my dad, my father lied to me.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
No, I'm very much half jew Like, let's go Judaism.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
Why have you always known this?

Speaker 2 (04:08):
Yes? I have, But I think the mom always kind
of wins the battle of the religion game. And raising children.
So I was raised Mormon.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
So you were ldet or I were you baptized?

Speaker 2 (04:21):
Yep? Baptized. The whole thing went to church hated unbaptized.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Can you get unbaptized?

Speaker 2 (04:26):
I think I've been like shunned, like we don't want
your kind?

Speaker 1 (04:31):
Got it? Got it? Okay? Cool? Wow, this is a
great starter to like all the questions. I literally have
thirty pages of questions for you. So I hope you
got a while.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
Let me tell you. Oh yes, I became obsessed with you.
It was because of Utah. I remember you walking out
of the locker room because it's like a gymnasium or whatever,
and I remember you walking out and it was as
if like smoke was in the air. You were walking
in slow motion. But you had this makeup on that
I saw where looked fake, like you did not look real.

(05:03):
You looked Ai before AI was a thing. And I
think was it Vesa?

Speaker 1 (05:07):
Who was your Bessa Hietla? Oh my god. So I
posted about this to all the listeners. But like, actually,
this guy is so multi talented he now like makes
costumes in England for millions of dollars. But this guy
did airbrush makeup back in the nineties and it was
insanity that day.

Speaker 2 (05:24):
The next day that I left that competition after looking
at your face, my mom baked to have a picture
with you and me. I can't find the photo I
already checked, but we took it because we loved your
makeup so much and you were so nice to me
and you humored us. And I went the next day
and I signed up for makeup lessons and I started
training and makeup the ten years past that and now

(05:46):
I'm on TV with you, like literally fangirl moment. I
never let you knew that because I was like so cool,
but like literally you you jump started my creativity and
like beauty and fashion and all of that from that
one day, Like actually, you know what.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
I just got chilled. And you know what, Lacey, I
love you. That is the why did you tell me?
Because you didn't want my ego to prop my head
to get bigger than it is.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
Maybe I don't know it was you were already good girl.
You knew everyone liked you already.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
Well, lots changed, A lot has changed since then, but
you're you do an amazing job on your makeup. I
must say, So, you know what, I credit myself.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
Good job, share you should ps. These earbuds are not
the jam. But I'm doing it for you.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Okay, good good, And you're doing it for you. You want
to sound great? Is that all your hair?

Speaker 3 (06:30):
Sure?

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Mine's not. I'm just gonna say I am basically still
have that like buzz cut underneath hair.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
Oh yeah, no, honey, this is my real hair. Let's
talk about this.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, I know, I mean, what's real? What's fake? Anymore?
You look gorgeous. You look gorgeous. Okay, so let's just
get started. This was you guys that you're like witnessing
it firsthand. We haven't talked in a while. It's been
a while. Reunion it is. It's a reunion time. Okay.
First of all, we're changed the vibe here. Bringing it

(07:02):
to first my condolences to you in your family and
your dad's passing. I'm so sorry, thank you. You know
I can relate a little bit. I'm not saying it's
the same story obviously, but like my father passed away.
I was close to him, but he obviously lived in
Thailand at the time. How are you feeling, you know, I.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
Mean, I think I'm feeling what I'm supposed to be feeling.
You know, everyone that I've talked to who has lost
a parent or someone significantly close to them, they all
just kind of say the same thing. There's just there's
no right or wrong way to feel. You just have
to like go with it, you know. And it was
a shock. I mean, he was very sick. You know,

(07:42):
he was a Vietnam Vet, so he had agent Orange
and I don't know if anybody knows anything about that,
but it literally it just attacks you from every avenue
of the body. And he was suffering from that for
about ten years. So my brother and I Benji, who
you know very well, we decided to get him care
and like twenty four set of nursing and all this stuff.

(08:04):
And he actually just went into the hospital randomly one
day because he was like, I just don't feel good.
So they went in. Everything was fine, everything's normal for him,
and my brother had texted him a video of my
mom and him dancing. Benji and my mom dancing at
a dance event and they did like this little dedication
to him, and everybody in the room stood up and

(08:25):
was cheering, and then they danced, and so my brother
sent that entire video to him and it was playing
when the nurses came in. What when he had passed away?
So yes, that was it he got again. Yeah, so
at least he passed in a way of just seeing
something beautiful and celebratory and something that mattered to him,

(08:47):
like because you know, my dad's life was dance. That's it.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
He's trying. He was a legend. He was literally a legend.
Like Donnie Burns. I don't know if my listeners would
understand who this person is, but he's like he was
like god in this industry, and he was like twenty
thousand time world champion. And you know, he always Donnie
always used to credit you know, Lacey's dad for where
he is in his career. You know.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
Yeah, and you know since then obviously with like him
training Donnie and everything. You know, Donnie now married my cousin,
so he's technically like my uncle now, which is like
really weird. So you know, going to like family dinners
now is like different. But no, it's you know it,
it's good. It's a positive thing. I mean, my dad
was much more than just a dad to me. You know.

(09:31):
He was a coach, a choreographer, a boss, just someone
who was just always there with me twenty four to seven,
and for every other dancer on the planet. I mean,
I can't tell you how many times I travel. Now
that's like, oh, I trained with your dad, your dad,
your dad, and it's wonderful. It's just great to have
that legacy before social media, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (09:53):
Where I mean he influenced this whole dancing world. How
was it with your family? Like? Was it hardly? Is
it hard to separate the two.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
One hundred percent? I don't wish it upon anybody, ever, However,
I do credit that kind of connection to why I
was so successful at such a young age. And for me,
you know, I grew up in that both of my
parents are professional dancers, you know, in and out of
the industry, their entire careers, the industry, meeting like television, film,

(10:22):
all of that stuff. But you know, growing up my childhood,
my memories are at ballroom competitions, like literally passing out,
going to bed underneath ballroom tables while the competition.

Speaker 1 (10:34):
Collecting the writing stones the dance floor.

Speaker 2 (10:37):
Oh my god, what a time.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
Huh.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
That was so fun. But for me, that was so normal,
and I didn't realize that not everybody had that I
didn't know that dance studios didn't do that. Like it
was weird for me. But I will say, you know,
getting yelled at your house, you know, for not making
your bed or like doing your laundry, and then going
to the studio getting yelled at there, it was. It
did have a negative to it. But I do think

(11:01):
that kind of built that thick skin to kind of
get that criticism and just kind of flip it and
switch that situation. But I don't know. My parents and
I might be biased, but both of my parents are
like the best coaches I have ever had the privilege
of working with, and I use a lot of their
techniques in training, and I did that a lot on

(11:21):
Dancing with the Stars too, Like you know, I just
I always got I think, like the specialty cases, like
you know, the ones that they're just like, we don't
know how this one's gonna go, you know, so get
it to lazy.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
I mean, we'll get there later in this interview. But
you had a couple for sure, yeh yeah, yeah, I
would say a couple though, But you've had a really
great you had a great run. I mean you had
some I would say there's three memorable ones for me
if I were like, look back before I Wikipedia, you're ass.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yeah, I totally agree. Oh. Wikipedia used to say I
had a sixth toe.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
So Wikipedia, if you're listening, take off the fact that
I am not a model. Okay, I'm not a model.
We got to take this out because like every intro oh.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
Ah, honey, I beg to differ because you and I
had to do a bikini model shoot for so many.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
Man, we're gonna get there. We're gonna get there. It's
when we bounced back from being fat shamed.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
I remember we were babe, we were so fat. We
were size sixes and we were so fat.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
Stop we're not fat.

Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, see how fat we are. We're PJT. You better
believe it. Sis.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
That's right, fat so.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
Fat, so fat? Huh, size four six.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
So Benji Swimmer is older than you, right, and everyone
probably knows Benji from So you think you can dance?
He won? So you think you can dance? And I
heard in an interview that you did like eons ago.
Maybe you feel different now, but like you know, one
of the questions this person was asking you was like,
how was it like you didn't want to get into
you stopped dance at one point, were you like being
a rebel in your life, Like was there at that

(12:48):
phase before you decided to audition.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
Or honestly, yes, there was a lot of factors that
went into that decision to stop competing. So I had
been doing competition since I was six, like a lot
of kids, and at about fourteen, I was like, hey,
I'm pretty good at this swing thing, Like I'm going
to turn pretty better be I know, right, my legacy

(13:12):
my parents would literally disown me. But I was fourteen
when I turned pro at swing, So yeah, I was
the youngest one to ever do so. So imagine a
fourteen year old traveling by herself, teaching adults, judging, competing,
and then hanging out at events to like four in
the morning with adults Like that is not good. It
is not a good situation. Do not do it. I

(13:33):
learned the hard way.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
So you grew up really fast, super fast.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
And you know, I didn't really have time to go
to school, so I never really did that. I had
to stop going to normal school. I was legally a
working adult at fourteen, and you know, paying.

Speaker 1 (13:47):
Tax How do you do that? How does that happen?
Your parents have to sign something. I'm sure.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
Literally, I literally could not tell you I was forty.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
You did get home schooled.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
Technically, it's called independent study, and what that means is
I do my own studying, my own homework, I do
my own testing. I just turn it into someone once
a week and they're like, all right, you're good, here
you go.

Speaker 1 (14:09):
I wish my mom put me in that, honestly.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
I mean I did graduate high school early, so.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
I mean, you're very smart. You could put a few
words together, which is great. It's always a good side.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Am I smart? You are?

Speaker 1 (14:20):
You are smart? I'm not kidding the compliment.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
No. I had to do that in order to travel
and continue my career at a young age. But I
got this partner when I was about fourteen, and it
was not a great situation, and he singlehandedly made me
hate dancing.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
Say more, why was it not a good situation?

Speaker 2 (14:44):
You know? One, our levels were very different. I felt
at the time I was far beyond him with education
and technique and experience, which is fine. You know, he
was kind of like a diamond and the rough, and
he he got clingy. He caught feelings for multiple people,
including myself, and it just became very inappropriate times. We

(15:10):
were the same age, we're both fourteen at the time,
we partnered with each other, but he moved into our
home and.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
So that we couldn't do.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
And you know, I caught him multiple times, you know,
coming into my room at night, and you know, I
didn't know at the time what that really was until
I processed it many many years later. And actually he
came forward and admitted to a bunch of things that
I had no recollection of, you know, very very very

(15:41):
inappropriate things that he had to do a twelve step
program for. And you know, I blocked him from my life.
I haven't spoken to him since we were you know,
sixteen seventeen. But he did have to call my brother
to get to me.

Speaker 1 (15:55):
To part of the twelve steps right to make amends.

Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yeah, correct, So you know he did it, and that's fine,
and I've accepted it and I've totally moved forward. I'm
I'm I feel fine. Sure, It's just you know that
single handedly stopped my joy and dance.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
Oh for sure. You didn't feel safe.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
No, not even a little bit. Nor was it exciting
to me anymore. You know that thrill that you get
like putting the makeup on getting your hair done. It
just I stopped loving myself, I stopped loving dance, and
I couldn't connect the dots. I did not understand at
sixteen what that was.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
Did you tell your parents about this at the time.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
So no, because my dad would have killed My dad
would have killed him, and I knew I could just
get rid of him and the problem would have been solved.
So I did that. And at the time, my brother
was Mormon. My brother was on a mission and he
was far away and we didn't have content the Mormon mission.

(16:54):
My brother couldn't have done anything, so I didn't want
to stress him out either. So I didn't tell my
brother about any of this until he got home a
while after that, and then you know, I let it go.
It didn't affect you.

Speaker 1 (17:05):
To go to therapy. Did you like talk to anybody
about it at the time?

Speaker 2 (17:08):
Round, Yeah, I had friends. I had parents of my
friends that I did confide in. In fact, one of
them I moved into when I was sixteen. I moved
into their house. At sixteen. My parents were getting a divorce.
So it's like, I don't want to be with either
of them. I don't want to deal with that, so
I moved in with a friend's family and just kind
of got my life together. But that's when I stopped dancing.

(17:30):
I signed up for beauty school.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
Thanks y've met me, obviously you're.

Speaker 2 (17:36):
Stunning piece of work. And then I got the notice
that my brother had been cast on So you Think
you can Dance? And when I saw him go on
that stage for the first time, like I had never
seen dancing in that aspect before, where dancers were the focus.
We were not just backdrops anymore. We weren't. We weren't

(17:57):
just like little props on a stage to build energy
and make an artists look better than they are. We
were stars. We were the artist. And I remember just
watching how everyone was cheering for him. Didn't know him,
but like loved him, and I'm like, I want this.
This is like what a positive experience. Little did I
know how chaotic it would be. However, he brought me

(18:21):
back into this dance life of just enjoying dance again
and being creative and being able to showcase my entire
training that I've had my whole life in a really
really cool way. So yeah, he actually inspired me to
start dancing again just from being on that show.

Speaker 1 (18:38):
How is your audition process and all of that.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
Oh my gosh, okay, so I mean even before so
you think you can dance? The judges would then go
over to my dad and be like, you know, she
has to pick a lane, pick a lane.

Speaker 1 (18:51):
She can't do it all who who would do that?

Speaker 2 (18:54):
Oh my god. All the judges that you already know,
not as at all. Yes, everyone not just ballroom. We
have swing dance people. We have you know, jazz and
hip hop people saying these things like I was doing
every single thing, and everyone had the same opinion, like
she can't she cannot make it as a professional dancer
doing everything. She has to pick one. So of course

(19:16):
my dad, you know my dad, he was just like, no,
she's going to do it, and watch her, watch her
do this. So when I did, so you think you
can dance? And I went into the audition, they had
asked me not to audition.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
What do you mean?

Speaker 2 (19:30):
This is this is a true story. So my brother
had won. Heidi, my cousin.

Speaker 1 (19:34):
If you do you know Heidi, of course I do. Yes, okay,
we compete against each other a lot, yes, it says.

Speaker 2 (19:39):
Okay. So Heidi and Benji had done the show, and
they both made the final four, you know, and my
brother won it. And I remember going to the rat
party with my brother and he introduced me to Nigel
and all of the producers at that time. Mary Murphy
was there who Mary had trained with my dad for many,
many years, but somehow never really liked me. And I'm

(19:59):
not really sure why into this day, but I remember
them being like, don't audition this year. You need to wait.
This is going to be like nepotism. People are going
to hate that you did it.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
You ask were their opinion?

Speaker 4 (20:11):
No?

Speaker 2 (20:11):
Never have I ever asked, Cheryl, Have I ever asked
anyone for an opinion or or approven any that I've
ever done.

Speaker 1 (20:18):
I mean, were you asking for their advice? I mean
that's normal. I mean I guess you would, right like
I would have, I guess, but.

Speaker 2 (20:23):
I did not. I thought, you know, we're young once,
we have these bodies once, and if I don't do
it now, when am I going to do this? You know?

Speaker 1 (20:33):
Maybe not was their reasoning? Were they like, how would
that benefit them? Or how what was the point of
them saying this?

Speaker 2 (20:40):
It was all nepotism, right, I mean, it's the fact
that my brother had won, my cousin was in the
top four, and then what the sister comes in and
is just going to like do the same, Like I
think that they were just really worried of the fan
base of So you think you and nance really pushing
for me because of Benji.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
And you came right after Benji?

Speaker 4 (20:58):
Was it?

Speaker 1 (20:58):
Our two seasons after? Right after got it? So it's
too many swimmers in one swim.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
I feel like that's literally the case of my life.
We should put that on a T shirt.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
But too many swimmers. Also, there's a David swimmer. You're
not related.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
We know this, Okay, well hold up, there is talk
about that. Apparently we're second cousins, but I've never.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
Met him, and I mean twenty three in me?

Speaker 2 (21:20):
Yeah, but do you think he has done a twenty
three in me? Go bye? So I went against what
they asked because they're like, wait, one season, like do
it season four, don't do season three? And I said no,
I said, it's good for you, We're not doing that.
The time is now. I'm eighteen, I'm like in the
prime of what I could actually physically do with my body.

(21:41):
I'm doing it now. So I did audition and Originally,
my brother wasn't going to audition with me. They thought
that it was going to be like not good to
do that.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
So I got involved.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah, so I remember my brother said, no, we're going
to do it, so he changed his trip. He shows up.
I had been waiting since four. I am outside, like
in downtown La. So if any of you understand how
crazy downtown La is, zombie town. So I was sitting
there by myself, just like a little eighteen year old,
not knowing anyone, and my brother shows up. They bring

(22:15):
me in. I do a private audition first because of Benji,
and you know, I remember them like really being mean
to me in front of a lot of.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
People, Nigel and Mary only and the.

Speaker 2 (22:28):
Producers, like all the behind the scenes people.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
They were just saying two judges or three judges.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
There was three. I remember. I went into like the
actual audition that they ended up airing, and they changed
our song in the edit, so it looks like I'm
dancing off time the whole time.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
And wait, you really think this or is this a
conspiracy theory? Maybe a little bit of both, Okay, got it.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
I do know that they did cutaway shots of just
my face and they made this a big point in
the audition that I had an ugly face.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
Weight like what they said that lazy. They didn't say that.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
No, not the word ugly face. They said you pull
your face like you're pulling your face in different directions.
And then Nigel made like this weird face. I don't know,
I'm all botox. I can't really move.

Speaker 1 (23:14):
Like literally pulling your face.

Speaker 2 (23:15):
Like like weird faces. And then they went into slow
motion and they zoomed on my face. So anyway, I
had to deal with that, and then they gave me
a hard time. They didn't put me straight through. I
had to go do like these other auditions. I was
there till like four in the morning that night, dancing
with random strangers, learning choreography. They're like, we just don't
know if you're ready. Did it and they played the
whole psychology game on me and I knew what they

(23:36):
were doing. Benji prepped me for that. Anyway, long story short,
I made it through. But even down to like Mary Murphy,
who of all people should have been supportive of me,
was like the one that was like, we just don't
know if you're ready. I just you know, you're not
your brother, like things like that, just constantly putting the
sibling thing, like they wanted us to like battle in

(23:57):
a way, and I knew what their storyline was. They
wanted to make it look like I wasn't getting any favors.

Speaker 1 (24:02):
Right, who are you battling when he wasn't there.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
Listen, I'm not a TV producer.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
Then you're superbatim. This is quoted like she said, you
are not your brother.

Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah, and honestly, like I I said that, like I
was one, Like I am not my brother, you guys, clearly,
I am female. I have a very different background than
he does, and I am good at different things than
he is not good at, Like we are different humans.
Like it's okay, and you know, I'm eighteen, so I'm
trying to make everybody happy. I'm trying to play this
game of just like, Okay, I'm not good enough. I

(24:36):
get it. I need to work harder. So I did,
and I pushed myself and I literally stressed myself out
so hard. But then when they told me that I
had made it, it was like a fifty to fifty thing.
Half of like the public was super excited and willing
to cheer for me, and then the other half I
had like chatroom saying the I hate Lacy chat room
or like you know, we want Lacey to die, or

(24:58):
like things like this, and it was just like at eighteen,
how do you process that information? Like there's no book
on teaching you how to be a TV personality?

Speaker 1 (25:07):
No there isn't, say yeah, no, there isn't.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
No, maybe we should write one.

Speaker 1 (25:11):
But I don't think I figured it out though, So
I don't think I can.

Speaker 2 (25:15):
Hey, you figured it out better than me, Sish, But
I don't know. I the show in general, I don't
remember a lot of it. I think my brain has
blocked out a lot of it, just from the pain
of course navigating how you're growing up as a young adult,
to like finding your womanhood, to just like create.

Speaker 1 (25:37):
Wanting me to be your own person and not be
compared to your brother, for God's sakes, I mean at
the end of the day, like okay, so then you know,
I didn't realize that that all went and down with
so you think you can dance? And I could ask
you a million other questions.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
Oh, they straight up told me no, no, they straight
up told me I wasn't allowed to win that season.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
This is crazy to me. Like it's so crazy, and
nowadays people wouldn't be talking like this because like you
can't do that, no, Right, So then you finally get
Dancing with the Stars, right, you literally make your own
path for yourself. You carve that path out. Benji Shwimmer
is not a fellow pro dancer. He didn't get asked
to do Dancing with the Stars. How did it all happen?

(26:15):
You were the first person from so you think you
can dance to be recruited and then it was a
full on like domino effect.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
Oh my god, I know. And now like the show
is like zero ballroom dancers. It's all just jazz dancers
pretending to do bachakata's. It's great.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
How you really feel?

Speaker 2 (26:31):
Oh what you don't? You don't share this opinion with
me at the moment?

Speaker 1 (26:35):
I mean I did. I didn't say shit, you did?

Speaker 2 (26:38):
Well? You know, listen, the show changes, right, everything evolves,
fashion of alls, music, trends of all. But you know,
I do feel like it's not really a ballroom show anymore.
So they don't really need ballroom dancers. They just need
good dancers. That's all they need. And that's what they're
casting now total, which is totally, totally fair. But then
they go out and they're getting hired as ballroom dancers
to educate ballroom dancing, and it's like, where were you

(27:02):
at Nationals in twenty fourteen, Utah, right where you fell
in love with Cheryl like I did. So you know
there is this kind of disconnect, right, but.

Speaker 1 (27:13):
Again, okay, you got asked, but you do have ballroom experience.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
Thank you, Yes, yes, yes. So when I came on it,
you know, I remember getting the call from my agent
and he said, where are you right now? And I
was in Norway. I was hired to teach, choreograph and
performing a very big production show out there right at us,
so you think you can dance? So I was over
there prepping for it. I was getting fitted for costumes,
the whole thing. And I said, Hey, I'm in Norway

(27:38):
and he goes, yeah, you're going to have to come
home like now, like next flight. And I go what's
going on? And he's like, we got a contract deal
for you and an interview for a very big television program.
And I'm like, okay, what they're like dancing with the Stars?
And I started laughing on the phone. I thought it
was a joke because at the time I had never

(27:58):
watched a single episode of the show. I knew that
you were on it. I knew, you know, the Huffs
were on it. I knew all these people from my
childhood that were on it. And I was like, Okay,
well that's cool, but isn't it for like old people?
Like I thought it was like an old person show,
you know, like I didn't see why they would want me.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
You mean, like they would only cast old people. No,
like the celebrities old.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
No, the demographic sys Well, no, that is true.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
That is still true.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
The demo is an older demo. And I didn't understand
why they wanted an eighteen year old like punk rock
like you know, rebel to come in and do that.
But I remember getting this call. I got on the plane,
I got home literally the same day. I go into
CBS studios, into the little bungalows where you know, we

(28:48):
used to have everything, and they put me on camera
and I remember it was Ashley. Ashley is the one
who did my interview in Joe Ashley Ashley and Joe Yes.
And I was so intimidated.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
Who was the showrunner than Conrad Green?

Speaker 2 (29:02):
Conrad it was Conrad yes, he's back now again. Okay,
I heard yeah, but I didn't meet him at that point,
and so they sent me down the interview. Blah blah blah.
I'm on camera and I think the first question that
they had asked me this could be out of order,
but they said, so, why do you want to do
the show? And I said, I don't. You guys called me.

(29:23):
I saw the contract. That money looks pretty good for
an eighteen year old, so I'm like, let's go with that.
Ashley I do know as the one who put me
on that show. She was the one single handedly who
fought for me and I still love her to this day,
like her and I still text. But I showed up
in like a white, ripped up tank top, ripped up

(29:44):
denim jeans, and flip flops. That's how I showed up
to this interview. I had no idea. Again, there's not
a book to teach you.

Speaker 1 (29:52):
But you weren't even a fan of the show. It's
not you wouldn't need a book. I mean, you could
have researched it, but that's just me.

Speaker 2 (29:58):
So I did it. And they're like, well, how do
you feel competing against all these people who are like
super established, and I go, well, honestly, my dad trained
half of these people out here, so I've known them
in a very different way. And I said, I'm not scared.
Let's go, like, bring it on, let's do this.

Speaker 4 (30:17):
After two and a half years.

Speaker 1 (30:19):
He was cheating while you were pregnant. We're pregnant. Yeah,
about thirteen women.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
More like if I would have stayed married to Max,
I think he would have cheated forever. It was. It
was just toxic relationship.

Speaker 4 (30:30):
Michael Coffin returns to wind Down with Janet Kramer.

Speaker 1 (30:35):
Wind Down with Janet Kramer and Michael Coffin.

Speaker 4 (30:39):
You don't want to miss this three parts reunions on
iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
Okay, So then coming to my next question, though you
weren't scared, but like, were you scared Lacey because you
have this? Okay, So my impression of you has always
been this. She's a strong woman, grounded, She's obviously was
raised well, and yet she never has shown any type
of like does she have emotions? Is she vulnerable? Does

(31:11):
she cry? Like? Because like, and this is why I
love you so much, because you are like you say
it how it is, how you see it. You've always
been like that, and you're not one to flip flop
back and forth. Your opinions don't change. You can always
go to Lacey if you are wanting the truth, right,
But there had to be a little bit of fear
going into this.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
Well, Okay, so you know eighteen nineteen years old. I
want to say maybe i'd turn nineteen by the time
I got onto the show. You don't know anything about anything.
And I remember at the time, I was definitely living
paycheck to paycheck. I had one hundred roommates living in
Studio City, and when I got this call, I can
safely say I was very underprepared for what was ahead.

(31:56):
And so the shock factor, like just the culture shock
of this new world, because you guys had already been
doing this for seasons at this time, and I do
feel like the og Cast before I came in through
the doors. You guys were such a tight knit little group.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
We were very ballroom right, like, this is all we trained.
We didn't do hip hop, clearly, we didn't do any
other styles. This was it. This was a ballroom dance show.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
Yes, yes, And I knew going in that I would
be looked at as less than and I definitely had
that in the back of my brain. And I knew
that people would challenge me, and I knew that people
like I would have to earn people's trust and respect,
and I knew that, but in a way, I also
just didn't care. I didn't. I don't care what people
think about me half the time, and and I say

(32:43):
half the time because I am female, and I do
feel it's.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
Just and you do care, like in general.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
But you know what, I'm going to be very, very
very honest here. The first day that I showed up
and I had my parking space with my name, and
I was like, oh my god, I show up and
the two people who I was a little intimidated to meet,
not meet, but work with, was you. Why, Well, you're
like the OG, You're like the we.

Speaker 1 (33:12):
Had a connection in provo.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, but you don't remember it.

Speaker 1 (33:16):
I don't. That's fine, I don't really, but I'm very flattered.
I'm very I'm seriously, but I credit Messa.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
I just I think because of the what I saw
in like the weekly magazines and like the interviews like
E Network and this, You and Max and Karna were
the people that were plastered everywhere like it was you three,
and you three were the ones that I felt like
I had to live up to, if that makes sense.

(33:49):
I felt like you guys kind of paved the way
for dancers to be celebrities. And I think, like seeing
that from an outsider's perspective, like and actually knowing you
guys from just competition, I was a little nervous because
I had never really I mean, I had a little
bit of that celebrity ism with with with of course

(34:10):
you think you can dance, but Dancing with the Stars
is a very different monster, and I think that was intimidating.
But I will say the three people who welcomed me
with open arms, they.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
Ask you that, like, was it where me you?

Speaker 2 (34:26):
No, it was you, Max and Karina. You three were
the ones who were just so excited. They were like,
you guys were like welcome to the show, Like, oh no,
you're going to outdance us, like all of you were
like it was awesome what you guys did. Now, of course,
there were some that were not so welcoming. However, however,
I will say down the road, those people flipped their

(34:47):
opinion of me, I think, and and realized that I
could hang like I could do it.

Speaker 1 (34:53):
Yes, you know. You know, it's so interesting because back
in the day, you know, we had this camaraderie, and
this is what I appreciate now after, you know, doing
twenty six seasons of the show, I've realized that, like
you know, the pro dancers, we had this honest camaraderie,
and I that's for me, that's what's been missing on
the show. And I agree, you know, at the end
of the day, what we did back then, though it

(35:14):
hurt and stung, we just straight up said no, you're
not choreographing. No you can't choreograph, and no you're not
dancing with this person. And this is what we think.

Speaker 2 (35:24):
I here's the thing. I took cues from you a lot,
and I looked up to you from the second that
I started that show, and you were like that voice
of reason, and I like, in a way, I felt
like you were like the mom anyway. So I just
remember the first rehearsal we had, Wendy was our choreographer Johnson.

Speaker 1 (35:45):
God damn it. I love her.

Speaker 2 (35:46):
Yeah, love the woman.

Speaker 1 (35:48):
She was literally still kicking. She's like, hey, you guys.
Wendy Johnson was my old dance coach from years ago
and Lend Goodman and Wendy Johnson rest in peace. But
they were both like they competed against each other, and
she helped me through this process.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
She was the first choreographer that I had worked with
that actually like supported me, because even on So You
Think You Can Dance, I always felt like I just
was never fully accepted. I was never fully liked. Maybe
that was a ploy from like the producer's standpoint to
kind of like not have the favoritism thing out there,
which which could could work. But going into SO You Think,

(36:23):
I knew I wasn't going to win. They told me
I wasn't going to win.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
They did, yeah, yeah, and they told you that.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
Oh the show. And you know they had told my
brother that as well. They're like, she can't win. It's
just not going to be fair. So we'll let her
go as far as she goes. But at the end
of the day, we cannot let her win. And I
got down to the top final four, and of course
they don't announce what placement you get at that particular season.
I think they do now. But I did not win.
Obviously I knew I wouldn't win, so it didn't affect me, like.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
Of course it did. It must have affected you knowing
that you were working your ass off and then knowing
you're not going to get the result you deserve.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
You know what I wanted. I always stand by like
the thing of like, I would rather get second place
and have people say you should have won, then get
first place and have people say you didn't deserve it.
So I firmly stood by that, and it was never
about winning for me. It was never about the money.
For me, it was about the experience and the exposure

(37:20):
and just being a part of dance in a different
way that I had never experienced prior to that. And
when I did Dancing with the Stars it was it
was a similar idea except that first contract. You know,
when you're eighteen and you see that number on the contract,
You're like, yeah, sign me up. All stay as long
as I can, let's go. So it was money motivated
for me with Dancing with the Stars at first, but

(37:44):
then I realized really quickly that I actually like liked
the people that I was working with, and like you,
and just the friendships and like what you said, we
used to go out all the time. We would go
to clubs and like openings of like events, and we
had just such a great time together and I feel
like you.

Speaker 1 (38:04):
Really grateful I think for that experience in real time.

Speaker 2 (38:08):
One hundred percent, and like it's something that I even
look back to on this day of just like we
had so much fun. Like as a group, the pro dancers,
we really were friends and we would get into with
each other. Yeah right, we would tell each other how
it is. I think I told Karina one time I
would like hurt her, and I told Alec Mazo that
I was going to stab him in the my god,

(38:31):
you know, like I remember of us. No, he was
being rude about something I couldn't tell you. And since then,
obviously Alec and I are great. But anyway, so how
was that walking into your first the rehearsal room and
seeing did you know who Lance Bass was? Uh? Yes,
I'm an instinct fan.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
I knew nobody, so I don't know.

Speaker 2 (38:52):
Literally, I I had their posters on my wall, amazing,
like I was in stinc fan. Now, of course I
thought I was going to marry justin Timberlake and that
just didn't happen for me. So my second choice was
going to be Lance Bass. Well, there you go, but
apparently he doesn't like my kind. No, so it was

(39:14):
just not in the cards. It was not in the
cards for me.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
So wait, did they tell you who your partner was
just in case? Like did they briefe you or did
you know? Like were you dying when you walked through
the door?

Speaker 2 (39:22):
Dead dead, deceased?

Speaker 1 (39:26):
And I do.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
I have watched that package back and we had to
do it a few different times the intro because I
think the first take, I literally like peed myself like
the ten year old girl and me, I think lost
everything and was just like, oh my gosh, I'm looking
at my idol like you know, like I was literally
like fantasize and like cut up their photos and I

(39:49):
was the fangirl.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
I was swept on his face like I did with
Luke Perry and Nino too, and oh rest in peace
work sis? Yes there wait, so he did it for him? Yes,
he did most of the nine on two and oh
cast did cool? But so wait, how was that experience then?
Was it like, okay, did you get over the whole
fame part of it? And did he meet and exceed
your expectations or no?

Speaker 2 (40:10):
I thought he would be a more natural dancer from
the get go than he actually was. And you know,
of course, I'm nineteen years old at the time, and
I don't understand people's processes very well at this point
in time. Of course, So our first routine, like we
we made sure that we played into like my fangirl status,

(40:32):
so we like put his picture on my costume, like
you don't even know it, but it's there. And I
designed my dress for the first time, and I was like,
this is so awesome, Like what a cool way to
be like creative. I was just living my best life.
Like I'm like, holy crap, I'm on TV. I'm nineteen,
I'm dancing with someone from instinct, like I have made it,

(40:52):
you know. And little did I know he could not
learn a dang thing. And I had really like, oh
my god, our rehearsals were pain full. I mean, we
have a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun,
don't get me wrong. Like he was phenomenal to be around,
but he couldn't retain the information instantly. It took him
a few days for it to like stink and settle.

(41:13):
And even then, like I remember, I had to like
do like okay three, like I had to like chat
to him through my teeth, which I did every other partner, but.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
No, totally, yes, no, absolutely. I mean I dug my
nails through their freaking costumes and some people count out loud,
you know, literally, yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yeah, And I think with Lance. You know, there was
one point in our competition and it was actually it
was our rumba. And I'm scarred by this because I
made the choice to do it barefoot.

Speaker 1 (41:38):
We don't fallow room barefoot, thank you.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
I understand that.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
So Waite, why was it traumatizing?

Speaker 2 (41:44):
He threw like a little meltdown, and I think he
can go back into our package for our rumba and
watch this meltdown. And I ended up crying, and I
was like, oh, I was so one. I didn't want
to disappoint Dancing with the Stars because the pressure that
Dancing with the Stars puts on the pros to exceed
with these partners. At least when we were on it
back one hundred years ago, it was a very different

(42:06):
show than it is now, you know, from anything to like,
if your partner doesn't do well, we gave you a
good partner. He has a lot of following, he's getting
a lot of votes, and then you're under delivering, or
or if your partner says like, oh, she's too hard
on me in rehearsals, or she's not hard enough, Like
there's all these just expectations of being this perfect teacher

(42:27):
and perfect pro and perfect partner that if you don't
deliver to their expectations, it almost feels like they take
it out on you in certain ways. And I was
starting to get the sense that I was pushing the
envelope a little too hard, meaning like pushing the boundaries
of the show's rules of what they're used to seeing

(42:47):
on the show to like pushing lance in directions that
kind of like affected his results too. And I got
it from his side of people like the managers, the
agents of this. I got it from Dancing with the Stars,
people like Conrad and even Ashley tried helping a few times,
just like, look, we get that you want to be different,
but let's babystep it, like let's ease into it being

(43:07):
more normalized of you being this like standout person, someone
who's like risking things. But even in our packages, like
they wanted me, they wanted me that way. They wanted
me to be rebellious because up to that point they
only had Max. They didn't have a female who wanted
to break rules and then talk about their opinions, so
they did egg that on a lot. They said, go

(43:29):
for it. Tell us how you really feel. You know,
they do the whole thing you know that producers do
in TV land, and I did it. I was nineteen.
I didn't know that it could backfire eventually.

Speaker 1 (43:38):
Do you think I?

Speaker 2 (43:40):
At points? I do? However, I also think it gave
me the career I have now. I do, and I
do remember one point in particular, you pulled me aside,
and you probably don't remember this either, And I was
voicing my opinion I want to say about Chas Bono,
because he had gotten a lot.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
I was your last season, right, yes.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
Yes, and I was standing up for him, and I
firmly believed it and anything like you said, if I
believe in it, I will tell it to you exactly
how I feel, and I will not sugarcoat it in
any way. So I was saying that. I said, you know,
it's unfortunate that the show doesn't have his back, and
I do think they're being a little extra critical on him,
making fun of his appearance and what he looks like

(44:23):
when he dances, but they're not doing it to anybody else.
And I said, it seems a little hatred, like.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
It was making fun of his dancing.

Speaker 2 (44:29):
Oh god, if I remember correctly, I want to say
the it was the judges. It was the judges. It
was never Len, Len was very respectful.

Speaker 1 (44:37):
Then it was probably Bruno or Carryenne, then Karen, maybe
not Carrian.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
I want to say it was Carrie Anne.

Speaker 1 (44:44):
I think she had.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
She had made a remark that he looked like either
like a fluffy teddy bear.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
It wasn't constructive, right, it was.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
It had nothing to do with his dance technique. It
had nothing to do with him as a human being.
It had everything to do with his esthetic what he
looked like. And to me, that is so uncalled for.
That is not what we're here for. And it's just
it's just mean, you know, And I mean you and
I had been dealing with a lot of that already
on the show at that point, which we can get into.
But I do remember you trying to take care of

(45:13):
me a lot.

Speaker 1 (45:14):
No, you were like my little daughter or sister. I'd
like to say, let's now fast forward or rewind, because
this actually happened your first season, and when I was
reading about this over the weekend, about that whole body
shaving thing from Max and Louis, it was shocking to

(45:35):
me more about because I had this naturally. Now that
you say it, now it makes sense, like why I
was already protective of over you just by reading this
article again. Right, but let me just read this to you.
It's horrible because this shit would not fly today. But
you know, just for people who are listening, you know
we back in two thousand and eight, I believe was
that your first season?

Speaker 2 (45:55):
Oh my god, I don't know, but that sounds the
two thousand and eight.

Speaker 1 (45:57):
Yeah. Anyway, there was this whole thing about Okay, did
I gain a few pounds? Yes? Whatever. At the end
of the day, you know, you don't have your co stars,
aren't doing the press line as we do every week,
and then they're saying this. So people this is quoted.
People look at the show to be inspired and think,
if I just work hard enough, I can look like that.
Louis van Amssell, who in Dancing with the Stars season

(46:19):
six was paired with Priscilla Presley, told the new issue
of TV Guide they watched someone who's dancing her butt
off and still heavy. They can be discouraged after seeing this,
and you have to take that responsibility. Van Ampssell and
fellow professional Maxim Schmerkovsky spoke out about Burke's weight and
that of dancing newcomer Lacey Schwimmer in the magazine's new issue. Schmerkovsky,

(46:44):
who was forced to leave Dancing over the Stars earlier
this season, when his partner Misty May trainer tore her
Achilles Tendon, said he asked the women to take stock
of their figures at the start of the season. When
I first saw these women, Max says, I said, guys,
you know the camera adds ten. Schmerkovsky recounted, you have
to do something about this end quote.

Speaker 2 (47:04):
First, no one should ever ever discredit somebody based off
of their appearance. I don't care if you're skinny, fat, whatever,
ugly face busted. I don't care what you look like.
It has nothing to do with your talent or ability
of what you are hired to do at the time. Again,
this is a very different time, and this is before women.

(47:25):
I think we're able to speak freely and have this
body positivity and celebrate the fact that we are women
who have hormones and hips and thighs.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
End of discussion. Literally to say this.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
But it's literally that simple. However, the dance community prior
to ten years, I would say, has been very backwards
in that thinking that a healthy body is a very
thin one where you can see the bones in their
chest or the back muscles, you can see every tendon
and me, that is not healthy. That is just awful.

(48:04):
It is not realistic, It is not sustainable. And when
I'm nineteen years old and I'm excited to do this
brand new venture and be celebrated for something that I've
worked my whole life doing, to hear people that I've
looked up to. I used to train with Louis by
the way, my dad used to trade him lessons for me,

(48:24):
by the way. It literally broke my spirit. And I
didn't want people to know that because again, like you said,
I carry myself. I don't let people into easily. I
liked it. Oh my god, it ruined me. I remember
crying and crying and crying. So the only thing that

(48:45):
I can say was positive about that is that it
put you and me.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
Together, And people still talk about it to this day.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
Yeah, oh, one hundred percent. And it was the one
time where I felt like I wasn't singled out. You know,
I was a part of someone who has loved and
honored on this television program. And we are both struggling.

Speaker 1 (49:08):
Totally, no struggling this issue.

Speaker 2 (49:10):
So from that, I mean, yes, it has definitely messed
up everything.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
Like what what do you mean? Say more?

Speaker 2 (49:18):
And it's not Max or Louise Faulton.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
No, No, I know, I'll never especially when you say
that Max was welcoming you just mind you like weeks
prior to this quote, right if you were to rewind
and then all of a sudden this got thrown into
your face. And yes, like you said, like, look, we're
not alone because we had each other, but we also
also I was too scared. I didn't know what vulnerability was.
All I did was just drink myself and my sorrows

(49:42):
to death. And it was like as funny as it
is now, it wasn't funny.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
No, it's not funny.

Speaker 1 (49:47):
How did you handle it all?

Speaker 2 (49:49):
Honestly? I went to my family. My family were the
people that pulled me right out of that. And you know,
but I will say they didn't pull me out of it.
They just reiterated, yeah, they just reiterated their support and
love for me and what is so crazy? And even
past the Max comment in Louis comment, there was many
many things after that that both you and I shared

(50:11):
with the body shaming. It wasn't just from people on
the show. It was from editors of magazines making fun
of us for wearing certain outfits in public, or you know,
catching us.

Speaker 1 (50:20):
Blowing us up literally like you would use whatever it
was back then to make us look fatter than we were, yes,
or we were never fat, by the way, we were
never fat. Literally.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
At my biggest in Dancing with the Star's history, at
my biggest weight, I was one thirty eight, thank you,
and I was a size six.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
My god. People would love to have your body. Women
would love to have you.

Speaker 2 (50:43):
There was this picture, you know, like I can't remember
what magazine did. It was like us or something, but
they would put like a person's like full body shot
from a red carpet and they would give their stats
of their measurements. Do you remember this era? No, Yeah,
there was like a magazine, I can't remember which one.
It was a weekly And I'm standing in like black
skinny jeans and like a little blazer and I had like.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
My side day, you did it. You did this.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
No, this was not voluntary. This is what they just
decided to run. Yes, so they said she's a size six,
and they made it sound like a six was just
plus size, like I am fat. So of course, ever
since that first quote from Max and louis that let
everybody else be able to have an opinion of what

(51:31):
I looked like now, just like you. I mean, we
have shared a lot of same experiences here and there's
some again that we are not proud of. I'm willing
to talk about some personal ones that I made. But
just like I think any female being pressured for their weight,
in our contract, it also states that we have to
uphold a certain image and we have to like be
a certain size, and you know, like even to the

(51:53):
down to the point of where you go into your
fittings and they're like you need to wear fish nets,
or they'll like they'll take the measurement they're like, oh,
you're a forty inch this now, or like do you
know what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 (52:02):
No, I don't.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
That has never been said to me, girl, do you
know how many times?

Speaker 1 (52:07):
But don't worry because because my fittings are me being
so mean to myself. They don't have to say shit,
that's why.

Speaker 2 (52:13):
Probably, well that's true. I mean there was a lot
of self hatred going on. God all of that as well.
But for sure I remember producers coming in to some
of my fittings because this is when the dancers still
had to say and what they wore. You know, now
it's really rare if your opinion is even heard. You
don't get to pick what songs you do, you don't
get to pick what you wear, you don't get to

(52:33):
pick your creative anymore. However, when I was on it,
I was.

Speaker 1 (52:36):
I think it's different now that Conrade's back, but yes, yes, yes, yeah,
but you.

Speaker 2 (52:41):
Know, for me, it was I built everything from scratch,
you know, for that partner for that week designing, sketching
with the Talented department at Dancing with the Stars, and
I just remember one time I walked in I did
my fitting, and a producer showed up and I thought
that was really weird, and they're like, we need I
put fishnets on you, and I go, okay, well for what,

(53:05):
Like why I don't need them? And they're like, you know,
on camera, we just need to see a smoother look
so I'm like, wait, what okay, Oh my god, lazy? Yeah,
how did that make you feel? Honestly, I didn't. I
didn't know because I thought maybe everyone was going through this.
I thought that this was just what the show did,

(53:27):
you know. I knew that there was pressure about my body.
I knew that, like I did.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
After this whole thing happened, yes or yes or.

Speaker 2 (53:34):
Yes after and honestly for multiple seasons after of course
after my first one. But of course, you know, looking back,
that body that I had was phenomenal.

Speaker 1 (53:45):
Oh my god, you're gorgeous, and like my producer literally
just put it in the chat, I wish I had
her body.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
Oh thanks, girlfriend, I appreciate you. But you know, being
nineteen years old, like what do you say? You don't
know what's right or wrong to say. You don't know
what power you have. You don't know what is too much,
you know? And I was learning as I went Now,
as the years went on, and as the seasons went on,
I realized what silhouettes looked best on me. I knew,

(54:15):
you figure all that out as you go along.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
What would you say to women who are going through
this today?

Speaker 2 (54:20):
Personally, I don't need any closure because I find closure
in myself right. Your self opinion, I think is far
more valuable than any man's opinion of what you look like.
So to me now being older in my thirties, I
have a very different outlook on bodies and health and
like really preaching to this next generation of women who

(54:41):
are or who are wanting to go into the entertainment
industry of just you need to have that thick skin
and really just in one ear out the other, because
people are going to have their opinions, and unfortunately, you know,
I don't think it's ever going to stop. I think
the second you put yourself out there is the second
that you are accepting criticism of who you are are,
from the core being of who you are to what

(55:02):
you look like on the outside.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
And how did you handle it though at the time,
were you also looking for quick fixes to try and
get as skinny as possible or what or did not
affect that.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
You know very well what I had to do to
keep thin and in a weird way, I do feel,
and this is my personal opinion that Dancing with the
Star's breeds body image issues for women. We are forced
to be put in bras and panties with a couple
of pieces of fringe on the butt, and just you're
standing next to these girls who are naturally skinny, you know,

(55:36):
and you have to take extreme measures.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
You know.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
There were times where I would eat like five hundred
calories a day and I'd be dancing all day and
I'd be on red Bull and just like trying to
go and go and go. And you know, I have
abused diet pills. I think that that was the biggest
thing where I would have an alarm set on my
phone to when I could take my next one. Like
I was so reliant on this and I do find

(56:02):
and hear me out again. This is my personal opinion, totally,
the thinner you are, the more attention you end up
getting on that show. And the second I dropped weight
and I was a size two and I was one
hundred and fifteen pounds, which is very not it's not
for me that normal. That is this That's literally the
day that I started getting put on every like Macy's

(56:26):
Choice Dances. And you're the favorite. So we're going to
have you do this little behind the scenes video shoot
and now you're a part of the photo shoots. Now
we can use you, and so you start getting this
love and it's this weird backwards way of feeling successful
for literally harming.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
Yourself, sacrificing in your body.

Speaker 2 (56:46):
Yes, and I have paid for that now, you know,
getting into my older age where your hormones change, and
I've had to see like so many doctors, I put
on so much weight, uncontrollable. I was working out twice
a day, dancing, eating right, the whole thing. Just every day,
another pound, another pound, another pound, and so at my

(57:07):
heaviest point in my life, I was so sick and
I couldn't figure out why. So I found a doctor,
Thank God for this woman. She was just like, girl,
your body is shutting down like you amused it way
too much when you were on TV. And she goes,
you're paying for it.

Speaker 1 (57:24):
So now that was the diagnosis.

Speaker 2 (57:27):
Well, I mean, aside from like genetic things that I
cannot control, which I found out, you know, there was
metabolism issues. So I had zero metabolism left. And I
didn't know that you can kill your metabolism. I didn't
know that your hormones could stop producing hormones, which that
was also happening because of the lack of my nutrition.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
And all the baby or something or no you don't
want no babies, no babies. We get there in the
second I love.

Speaker 2 (57:56):
Your babies, but no babies, but no babies. No, it
was I I will honestly say the show definitely made
me think less of myself. And no, it's it's it's no,
I'm here.

Speaker 1 (58:10):
I I listen. I'm just I have compassion, and I understand.
You don't understand.

Speaker 2 (58:17):
I think too. When I came back for Chazz's season,
I had and you had taken.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
Some time off. No, we didn't take time off.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
I think it was straight. No. No, I had like
one or two seasons where I took a little break
and they put me more on the creative side of
Like was.

Speaker 1 (58:34):
That your choice?

Speaker 2 (58:35):
No?

Speaker 1 (58:37):
Interesting? Wait, really I don't remember this. What was the break?
When was the break between Mike and Chazz Meg Catherwood.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
I have no idea, to be completely honest.

Speaker 1 (58:49):
Wait, that's insanity. So they had made you part of
the production team.

Speaker 2 (58:52):
Basically I would come in and do all the group
choreography for every result show, all the openings, Like that's
why I was doing your guys' choreography. Remember why I'm
gonna be like Cheryl, You're going to be in the
front of this formation, and you're like, why are you
putting me in the front, Like, because I was in
charge and I wanted to celebrate the people that I
truly believed in and create these dances that like was
like real great organic dancing, and that was one of

(59:15):
those seasons.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
So many fans have had questions for you because I
always do this like rapid fire.

Speaker 2 (59:30):
Out, oh God around.

Speaker 1 (59:32):
But there's also another game that you know, me and
the producers. I always say, not me, the producer came up.
But that was really good. So it's just so much happening.
I mean, put my dirty pages of notes away. Hold on, Okay, literally,
thank you for opening up. I'm so it makes me
still feel like I'm not alone. But one more thing
before we close on this, because I need to have
you say what advice you would give to because you

(59:55):
were continuing on with that, but like, what is the
clear advice you would give to let's say, girls or
adults right that want to dance but just be like
they don't look good enough. What can they do other
than avoid I guess listening or caring because like I
do care about what people think I'm working on it,
but it's not yeah, a process that happens overnight. So
what can people do when they're dealing at the moment.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Honestly, I don't have good words for anyone, because I
do feel like it is a very personal journey that
people have to go through to be in love with themselves.
And I don't find that to be a bad thing.
I think being in love with yourself is being proud
of who you are and the choices you're making. And
we all make mistakes and we all grow and we
all develop. But my biggest fear is especially for this

(01:00:40):
next generation of dancers coming into television, you know, especially
like little Riley Arnold for example, Like she started out
as one of my assistants on my convention that I
own turned into a teacher, which I'm so excited for her,
but she is so young, and I looked at her
when she told me she got it. I was first.
I said congratulations, of course, all the things, but I

(01:01:02):
also kind of sat her down and gave herlik a
come to Jesus moment of like this is what you
need to expect, Like, expect people to hate on you,
expect relationship rumors expect all of this stuff because that's
what this show does. It is not just about the dance.
And I will say that going into non television work too.
You see these dancers coming up and I have an

(01:01:23):
assistant and literally yesterday I was with her and she's
on this crazy diet and I'm looking at her. She's
fourteen years old, and I'm like, you're beautiful, Like what
are you doing? Why are you doing all this to? Like, oh,
my coaches are telling me to do it. My biggest
piece of advice, if you're happy and you're secure with
yourself and you love who you are, everybody else's opinion

(01:01:45):
completely does not matter. And if anybody tells you to
change who you are, shame on them, get them out
of your life immediately. It is not worth it. It
is not worth it whatsoever. And just from what you
and I have had to deal with with the body
shaming on television, and I never wish that upon anybody.

Speaker 1 (01:02:03):
By the way, still is a problem. Like honestly, it's like, well,
I know I'm very vocal about it, but like at
the end of the day, I mean I have straight
up said body dysmorphia has actually taken over my life
and still sniche. What I've seen the mirror isn't necessarily
what people see at all. Actually it's quite a different picture.
I think, also going to what you're saying, adding on

(01:02:25):
to that, my identity was defined by if I won
a Mirror Ball last season or not, or like what
place I got from place one to getting eliminated first.
And I think if I were to even dig a
little bit deeper, obviously what you said, yes, absolutely, self
love and having some sort of compassion and empathy towards
yourself would help. But in order to get that, you

(01:02:45):
cannot define yourself by your status, whatever that is like
whatever's or by the friends you have, or by what
relationship you're in, or by like what place you got
on a show or in a competition. It literally goes
into like your identity is not your career, it's not
any of it. It's about who you see in the mirror.
And that's how you start to I believe, after decades

(01:03:07):
of therapy, finally understanding and I'm only hitting a little
bit of it because I'm not there yet, but trying
to redefine my own identity because that was my identity.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
I don't think it's just you. I think that show
it's not it breeds that because in a way, I
think they think they're pushing us.

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
To Yeah, but it was a better for the show.
It was literally the dance world in general.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
It's just a dance world. It truly is, and I
do sympathize with that. But also I do think that
with my parents they kind of establish like, don't give
a shit what people say. It doesn't matter at the
end of the day, and it doesn't. It truly doesn't matter.
But I will say I felt like when the show
decided not to bring me back, and everyone's like, why

(01:03:48):
haven't you come back?

Speaker 1 (01:03:49):
It's your decision. It was your tual.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
It's never been my decision. Even when I had my
seven season contract and they didn't use me one season,
they didn't use me, and they weren't going to use
me a second season. And if you know in that contract,
if they don't use you two seasons in a row,
your contract is void. So I was freaking out, well,
at least mine said that, but I was freaking out
that I wasn't going to get asked and they said, sorry,
we're not going to use you. And I went into

(01:04:13):
this full depression, full panic, like I wasn't going to
be anything, which I ever am out. I'm a month
before Chaz, before Chaz. In fact, it was my season
with Kyle Massey.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
What after your season?

Speaker 2 (01:04:26):
Uh? Huh the season I was not supposed to be
his partner.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
Wait what lazy lazy?

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
Nope. In fact, I do believe he was supposed to
go to Chelsea High Tower, if I'm not mistaken, If
I remember correctly, it was another younger dancer. Something happened
and either someone dropped out or whatever, and they shifted
people around last second, and then I got a call
and they said, hey, just kidding, you're on. Yeah, so

(01:04:54):
and and that happened to be one of my best seasons.

Speaker 1 (01:04:57):
We it was your best season.

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
Knew we wouldn't win.

Speaker 1 (01:05:01):
How do you know you wouldn't win. He's Disney, he
was all the things.

Speaker 2 (01:05:05):
He's all the things. But we also were up against
Jennifer Gray and her backstory. But you know when I
when I ended the show, well, when the show ended
for me, let me put it that way, I did
go into a depression. And I don't know if you've
experienced it yet.

Speaker 1 (01:05:19):
I'm not well. I'm grieving I mean, it was my decision.
But regardless it's regards, it doesn't matter. It's worse than
my divorce.

Speaker 2 (01:05:26):
Yeah, and you know, I went through this phase of
not knowing what I wanted to do with my life
because I couldn't dance anymore because I had stopped all
those connections, you know, from teaching and all that stuff.
So I went into like this broke depressed, dark life.
And I ended up getting a call saying they wanted

(01:05:48):
me to go to Vegas to open up the Vegas
show for Dancing with the Stars, and I said yes
because I needed the money, and I did.

Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
The show, called you uh I wanted to.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
Actually, Dina Katz called me okay, Yeah, she was the
one who I think set it up for me. But
then you know, Guy was there, and of course he
was great to work with at that time, and you know,
all my friends were on it that weren't on the
season that year. So I'm like, Okay, this is going
to be fun, you know, and it did. It turned
out to be a really great thing. I met the
love of my life doing this show. Who's a headliner

(01:06:21):
in Vegas? Shout out to Frankie Marino, Are you dating him. Yeah,
we've been dating for like eleven years.

Speaker 1 (01:06:27):
What are you guys getting married?

Speaker 2 (01:06:30):
I mean, what's marriage these days?

Speaker 1 (01:06:32):
Yeah, exactly, talk to me about it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:34):
It's all the same like who cares good for everything?
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:06:37):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
Yeah, but it did turn out to be a good thing.

Speaker 1 (01:06:40):
It's just so that is why. So that got you
out of this like dark hole, that's what you're saying.

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):
Yeah, okay, it did take me about three four years
to rEFInd my path. Yes, And I think that's also
why I kind of dropped off the face of the
earth is I didn't know where I fit in. I
didn't know where I was accepted because.

Speaker 1 (01:06:57):
I didyed by the show.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
Thank you. And what's really interesting is I have created
another path for myself, one that didn't exist, but I
made it exist. And you know, I own my own
dance convention now, which is really great. I'm a part
of a full time dance convention as well. I tour
all year long. I'm educating young dancers. Now, I have
my own shoe line coming out, which is like a

(01:07:22):
huge that's awesome. And you know what's really weird and
I'm not going to name drop these people. They are
currently on the show. They're all feeling the heat of
like the time is coming that they're going to be done.
You know how you know when you just get that
sense like I'm not going to get called back this season,
So what am I going to do with my life?
How am I going to pay my bills? And they

(01:07:44):
have all direct messaged me, texted me, emailed me asking
to join my dance convention because they don't know what
to do after this show is over. And I think
that's awesome, and I have, of course all I've said
yes to every single one of them. Luckily they're all
on the show this season. But when that time comes,
it's like no one, no one tells you what happens
after TV, just like no one tells you what to

(01:08:05):
expect before you. So if I can help navigate that for.

Speaker 1 (01:08:10):
Other people that I would rather do that, Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:08:13):
But you know it sucked, dude, and like to have
that constant reminder from people like walking in the street recognizing.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
You being also your outgorithm on your phone must be
still dancing with the stars, Like I can't tell you.

Speaker 2 (01:08:26):
How annoying that is.

Speaker 3 (01:08:27):
By the way, Okay, rapid Fire, Okay, you want to
play really quick.

Speaker 1 (01:08:39):
Yeah, got most competitive? Only you can only name your
celeb partner one of them?

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
Oh god? Uh Mark de Cooscus the karate guy.

Speaker 1 (01:08:49):
Oh really interesting? Who do you speak to the most?
Do you need me to remind you of who your
partners are?

Speaker 2 (01:08:54):
I mean I had to, okay speak to Kyle?

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
Who was the most awkward?

Speaker 2 (01:09:00):
Steve O?

Speaker 1 (01:09:02):
Most annoying.

Speaker 2 (01:09:04):
Kyle?

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
Most talented Kyle who trusted and supported you least? Mark Dacostis,
who trusted and supported you the most? Lance Best, best student?
Kyle Massey worse.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
Even though we only know we only rehearsed for ten
minutes at a time. The producers hated us keep going worse.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
Student because he didn't need to rehearse.

Speaker 2 (01:09:25):
Literally, he literally picked it up like this.

Speaker 1 (01:09:27):
It was insane amazing. Now who is your worst student?

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
Steve O?

Speaker 1 (01:09:32):
Most hearty for the party?

Speaker 2 (01:09:34):
Oh god? Lance? Lance?

Speaker 1 (01:09:38):
Best? Who smelled the best?

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):
Lance?

Speaker 1 (01:09:41):
Who smelled the worst? Steve? Who would you dance with again?

Speaker 2 (01:09:48):
Honestly?

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
Steve O? Who do you still keep in touch with
it with to this day? I already ask this, Yeah
you did as soon as you wrapped the season. Who
did you never hear from again?

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
A lot of them. Actually, go ahead, name them, Chazz,
Chas Bono. Here's the one I stood up for the
most and the one that I never heard from.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
Who would you apologize to if you could, lance, Who
would you have the best chemistry with? Who did you kile?
I think my cat. I think you're lucky. We haven't
gotten there.

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
Okay, I don't want to.

Speaker 1 (01:10:22):
Who falls in love? Who falls in love first dancing?
The celebrity or the.

Speaker 2 (01:10:25):
Pro u celebrity. We're trained to do this. We're trained
to bump and grind on people without feeling an emotion.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
Did you ever meet cher Like in person?

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
Yes? I did. Yes, Honestly, I was petrified, So I
don't really remember the day very much. And I know
to me she was she was very complimentary and she
said thank you for being so kind of Chaz and
all that stuff. But I mean I was shaking my
armpins were sweating.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
You are such a fangirl. I am a fangirl of
you now. I love you. Thank you, Lacey.

Speaker 2 (01:10:54):
I love you seriously.

Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
I hope that I hope that this like being able
to talk about it, I mean, this is why I'm
doing it. I hope it brought a little bit of
closure just a little bit, you know, it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):
Does, and I think hopefully the current pros realize that, like,
you need to make the most of this time, because
when it's done, you are so removed and it isn't
as if you've never existed before.

Speaker 1 (01:11:17):
So my advice would be start planning that day now.

Speaker 2 (01:11:21):
Absolutely, I will show it a planet five years prior
to me exiting the show.

Speaker 1 (01:11:25):
But you know what, You're in a beautiful place now. Honestly,
you've lived so much and you've learned so much. Thank
you for your time. I love you. And where can
you people find you?

Speaker 3 (01:11:34):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (01:11:35):
Anywhere?

Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
Anywhere?

Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
Do you want people to find me?

Speaker 1 (01:11:38):
In the Yellow Pages? Remember those?

Speaker 2 (01:11:41):
Do they still have that?

Speaker 4 (01:11:42):
No?

Speaker 1 (01:11:42):
I don't know what's your Instagram handled.

Speaker 2 (01:11:44):
Dummy, the Lacey Shwimmer because apparently someone took my name
and then tried to make me pay for it. So yeah,
but it makes me sound like total like jerk being
like the lazy swimmer.

Speaker 1 (01:11:54):
Or how about my TikTok is at official Cheryl Burke
like because someone took ChIL Burke TikTok so I'm a
TikTok er influencer. You better check it, watch it, watch yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:12:04):
You're doing all the elbow dancing and like, no.

Speaker 1 (01:12:06):
This is all I do on TikTok I talk okay.
Oh I use my mouth for money now, not my body.

Speaker 2 (01:12:11):
Honey. That's a great T shirt.

Speaker 1 (01:12:15):
I'm just your girl next door. Love you.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
I love you, babe.

Speaker 1 (01:12:18):
Make sure you guys follow us at sex Lies and
spray tands on our Instagram handle and make sure your comment.
Let me know who you want me to interview. What
do you all think? Let me know